Quixtar Started a Massive Clean up!

At last Quixtar wakes up! They started cleaning the mess! They terminated big shots of TEAM. What about other Frauds in Network 21, BWW, Yager , Winners International? Next to clean up is Britt World Wide..ha ha....


Read the news below:

************Reproduced from http://www.prweb.com/releases/2007/8/prweb546259.htm***************************************

Quixtar Takes Swift Action To Protect Its Business

Non-compliance with company rules results in business terminations.

ADA, Mich. (PRWEB) August 10, 2007 -- Quixtar Inc. announced this morning the termination of 15 independent businesses as a result of actions detrimental to the company's North American operations. The businesses affected were part of the Team training organization or other training organizations using Team's training materials and named as co-plaintiffs in a lawsuit filed by Team's founders against Quixtar yesterday in a California district court (07-08413-CK).

Quixtar was working with Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, founders of the Team training organization, to correct issues related to Team's teaching of inappropriate business-building tactics, improper positioning of the opportunity, and use of unauthorized support materials. These teachings placed themselves, affiliated Independent Business Owners (IBOs), and Quixtar at serious and immediate risk of legal and regulatory actions and had to be stopped.

Woodward and Brady refused to work with the company to return Team to compliance with Quixtar's rules, stated their intentions of starting a new company in competition with Quixtar and filed a lawsuit against the company seeking relief from their non-compete requirements. The lawsuit is filled with outrageous claims and statements and will be defended vigorously by the corporation.

Due to their refusal to correct their business practices, Quixtar terminated the independent businesses of Woodward and Brady as well as those who joined them as plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit. A Temporary Restraining Order and Preliminary Order of Injunction was sought by the company and granted today in a Michigan district court, preventing Woodward and Brady from interfering with the Quixtar Line of Sponsorship (LOS), soliciting IBOs for another business opportunity, disparaging Quixtar and damaging its reputation, and requiring them to return to Quixtar its proprietary and confidential LOS data.

Additional co-plaintiffs whose Quixtar independent businesses were terminated include Billy Florence, Don Wilson, Randy Haugen, Chuck Goetschel, Tim Marks, Kirk Birtles, James Martin, Aron Radosa, David Brandy, Benjamin Dickie, Bruce Gilbank, Michael Martenson, and Chuck Cullen.

Incidentally, the law firm representing the plaintiffs is the same firm involved in several other frivolous lawsuits against Quixtar and IBOs.

Quixtar remains committed to the support of all IBOs and will work with those who agree to abide by the company's rules and maintain high ethical standards. In fact, the company has announced many improvements to further enhance its business, including more than $200 million in investments in product development, brand building, training, and compensation enhancements.

Commentary from the company is being provided at the Alticor Media Blog and Quixtar is actively reaching out to IBOs who were in the Team training organization and other organizations affected by these terminations to restate our commitment to supporting their independent businesses.

About Quixtar
Quixtar Inc. offers a business opportunity that allows people to have a business of their own based on retailing products and sharing the opportunity with others who will do the same. Quixtar supports Independent Business Owners (IBOs) with a proven compensation plan, portfolios of quality products in health, beauty and other consumer categories, plus the merchandising materials, training and education they need to be successful. IBOs also are supported by communities of those who have succeeded in Quixtar businesses before them.

Since 1999, Quixtar IBOs have generated $6.8 billion in sales through Quixtar.com, plus more than $500 million for Quixtar Partner Stores. These sales have earned IBOs more than $2.2 billion in bonuses through the Quixtar® Independent Business Owner Compensation Plan plus other incentives. Their efforts have propelled Quixtar to be ranked the #1 online Health & Beauty retailer based on sales, and 22nd among all e-commerce sites, according to Internet Retailer magazine.

A subsidiary of Alticor Inc., Quixtar supports independent businesses in the U.S., Canada, Puerto Rico, and various trust territories and independent island nations in the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans and Caribbean Sea.

*******************More News from Alticor Blog*********************************
*****Reproduced from http://media.alticorblogs.com/2007/08/10/just-go-team/********

Just go, Team

We terminated Orrin Woodward yesterday, along with several other leaders of his field organization, named Team. We’ll post our formal statement when it’s ready. Informally, here’s the story:

We terminated Orrin Woodward for philosophical reasons. We did it for legal reasons.

But the main reason we did it is because the way Orrin Woodward ran his organization was a disgrace to every person who’s ever tried to build a Quixtar or Amway business the right way.

We have fought to clean up the reputation of our company for years. We know that one of the biggest challenges our reputation faces is misrepresentation of the Quixtar and Amway businesses to others.

And over the last several months, it became clear to us that Orrin Woodward was a poster child for a long list of bad business practices that our critics hate about our company. The other leaders we terminated – including Chris Brady, Billy Florence, Don Wilson, Randy Haugen, Tim Marks and Chuck Goetschel – also showed they were unwilling to reform.

Not telling people they were signing up with Quixtar? Woodward would hide that fact from new Independent Business Owners as long as he could.

Making people think it was easy money? Same deal.

Telling people that Quixtar was merely a “supplier,” and not the company they were signing a contract with? Yup.

We’d told Woodward we had problems with the way he ran his business for years, and we worked methodically to bring those problems to resolution. We got ignored, we got lied to, and, boy, we got the runaround.

So in the end, yesterday, we tried to give him one last chance to reform.

He didn’t even want to hear his options. So we terminated him. And in return, he handed us a trumped-up, trash-talking lawsuit on his way out the door. In response, we have a temporary restraining order issued by a court that prevents him from looting the business as he seeks to take his act to a new company.

So he’s gone, and so are others. We are doing our best to repair the relationships Orrin Woodward damaged and protect the businesses of the people in his organization that Orrin Woodward betrayed. And we will continue building our business with thousands of people who know how to build it the right way.

We would say we were sorry to see Orrin Woodward go. But only if that were true.


Amway and Quixtar - an opportunity for anyone August 13, 2007 at 12:59 PM  

I can't speak for the others, but I'm just curious as to how much experience you have with Network 21 to declare it a fraud?

The truth about amway

Ann Crystal August 14, 2007 at 12:11 PM  

I understand your feeling about Network 21. Even if I accept that N 21 is not a fraud organization like BWW (which I have experience with), it doesn't change anything. Then you might have an answer for Why N-21 conferences/meetings are banned in UK by Amway along with BWW ones? You have every right to be upset if somebody criticizes the "philosophy and organization" to where you're attached. But, my whole criticism is towards the "nature of operations" of these motivational organizations like BWW, WWB, Network 21 etc. I have seen you scribbling in some other forum that I am commenting on Network 21 without knowing about it. If you're too much worried about the maintaining the credibility of Network 21 as being a non fraud organization (and different from other organizations like BWW, WWDB, Yagers, Winners International, LTD, JC etc): please testify that
1. Network 21's main motto is to serve its team IBOs to educate themselves to do Quixtar business without making profit from the IBO who trust them.

2. Network 21 doesn't do any parallel "tool scam business" and make profit out of their own downlines. And that tools just cover the production cost!

3. Network 21 doesn't insist its downlines to spent money on conferences 4 times a year which is worth half its ticket price.

4. Network 21 doesn't sell the recorded motivational speeches from these conferences to people who already attended it:)

5. Network 21 doesn't do any subscription program similar to that of BWW where in the downlines will have to pay monthly for tools which somebody chooses for them.


If you can testify this, I'll consider Network 21 as a non fraud. Else Network 21 is another blood sucking leech in the Quixtar Amway cult.

If this is the trend: Days are not far to see prostitutes starts claiming that they are virgins!

Joecool October 7, 2008 at 9:14 PM  

Good response Ann. The person who asked the question is a troll who advocates for Amway and Network 21.

Hey IBOfightback, this one post blows your theory to shreds about nothing negative on the net about network 21 huh?

I'm rolling on the floor LMAO right now!

tex October 7, 2008 at 9:41 PM  

N21 is a whore, just like the rest of the LCK's.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

IBO-FB October 8, 2008 at 11:23 AM  

oh dear - career Amway critic JoeCool doesn't even know what an "internet troll" is - but that's a story for another time.

Ann - in response to your questions.

1. Network 21's business is to provide training and support materials to Amway business owners. It is a for-profit company owned by Jim & Nancy Dornan.

2. Network 21 doesn't *have* a downline, it's not an Amway business. It's business is as per (1). Network 21 IBOs get volume discounts/rebates on materials purchased from N21, just like pretty much any other business.

3. N21 clearly states that all of it's services and materials are optional. I'd estimate that >80% of IBOs downline of N21 affiliated IBOs do not spend any many on N21 conferences and materials, so there's cetainly no "insist". Regarding the "worth" of ticket prices, every time I've done price comparisions, N21 events are significantly *cheaper* than similar events held by "outside" organisations, what's more, if you feel the event wasn't worth the price of the ticket, then N21 offers a 100% money back guarantee.

4. N21 sells seminar recordings to any N21 affiliated IBO who wants them. Those recordings maybe from events the IBO attended, or maybe from anyone of thousands events held around the world.

5. N21 has a subscription program for those who want it. Again, there is no "must" or "have to", and by far the majority of downline of N21 affiliated IBOs choose not to subscribe.

6. As per (1) and (2), Network 21 doesn't have a downline, it's not an Amway Business. It's a for profit independent company setup to offer training and support to Amway business owners. In some countries it's making a profit, in other countries it's losing money, that's business.

Frankly Ann, I find your comments more than a little bizarre and exhibiting a lack of understanding of how not only the Amway business works, but business in general.

Ann Crystal October 8, 2008 at 11:07 PM  

Glad that IBOFB cared to respond to my questions little after an year of my asking. Thanks to Joecool for helping me to find answers to my questions.

Ok IBOFB, as you mentioned I may not understand what a business is ? As you might be expecting, as a high school drop out operating from underground, I don't understand what real business is. Correct me if I am wrong, the key idea of any business is mediating a transaction by providing goods and services to those who need them and money flows in the right direction. If interpreted meaningfully, Can you deny that what mafia and drug dealers are doing is NOT business. They may be killing people for money, so do the Amway, Network 21, BWW and similar cults. Now let me answer your points in the next comment!

Ann Crystal October 8, 2008 at 11:28 PM  

IBOFB- my thoughts on your answers:

1. Do you guys ever tell this point directly to new recruits? Or do you just fabricate the facts and show the millionaire dramas after dressing up like clowns in suits and giving false hopes of reaping millions? Do you ever care to tell what the real Amway cult (sorry, business) is?

2. Amway stuffs are already over priced? Network 21 is a FOR PROFIT organization and NOT a CHARITY. So, how are you EXACTLY giving discounts and rebates to IBOs who purchase Amway stuffs thru' them? My brain is not working, somebody please explain what this cult is? Do you ever tell your plans about how NEtwork 21 is making profit from IBOs after discounts and rebates? Say it LOUD!

3. As you mentioned- In network 21, buying your cds, books, event tickets and other craps are OPTIONAL, then please tell me Why Amway banned your seminars in UK? Now you've tell that Amway is a Bitch. If you're not going to tell that...then people will know that Network 21 is the real bitch. If so, Stop these virginity talks!!

4. Buying seminar cds are "OPTIONAL", that's the Amway doctrine you're interpreting. Can you ever tell that NONE of Network 21 scammers (sorry leaders) forced their downlines to buy that? If it's optional, why somebody would buy same cds of the seminars they attended? Are your IBOs having a class test or school assignment based on those cds?

5. Again if the subscriptions are not mandatory, Who in the earth will subscribe to your program? Network 21 doesn't have any track record of building a nation or even a city? Give me a break, buddy!!!

6. I don't want to answer your 6th question. I already answered it.

Be transparent and speak it loud that Network 21 is a cult. If you say that, atleast you'll be blessed!

rocket November 11, 2008 at 4:44 PM  

There you have it...

IBOFB AKA David Steadson - OWNED

Well done.

Anonymous,  November 14, 2008 at 7:07 PM  

LOL....Seriously, this picked up after a year!!!????

Kudos Ann for schooling IBOFB, AKA troll. But of course it's not hard to school an idiot.

IBOFB January 6, 2009 at 7:41 PM  

It seems that folk with nothing better to do have dragged this thread up again, citing it elsewhere. I hadn't checked back and seen your further questions. Clearly anyone who thinks thats being "schooled", ala rocket, believes arguments are won through invective and innuendo, not facts and logical reasoning. Alas in certain areas of particular political debate, he's probably correct. I'll stick to facts and reason if you don't mind.

1. Yes, the history and ownership of N21 is usually mentioned briefly when the business is explained, as is the history and ownership of Amway mentioned. Neither are in anyway particular different as far as the way companies are founded and own from any other company. I for one simply assumed N21 was a for-profit company. Makes zero sense to me that they'd give away there stuff.

2. N21 doesn't sell Amway products, and you don't and can't buy Amway products "through" N21. You apparently have little understanding of the relationship. Have you ever actually had the business model explained to you?

3. Amway hasn't banned N21 seminars in the UK, and in fact cannot ban N21 anymore than they could ban Tony Robbins. It's a complicated situation in the UK at present. N21 affiliated leaders, and leaders from other groups, continue to hold seminars, with the full knowledge of Amway, though there have been some adjustments to account for some concerns of BERR. The BERR judgement makes no mention of any N21 wrongdoing and sites a number of N21 affiliated IBOs as examples of IBOs running profitable Amway businesses.

4. I fail to understand how anyone can be "forced" to buy anything short of extortion or some other threats. Doing so would clearly be a criminal act and should be reported to the police. Regarding purchasing CDs of seminars you've been to, there's lots of reasons to do it, for example lending it to others, reviewing the information again etc etc. University students commonly record lectures they attend, why do you think it's so odd?

5. This has to be one of the silliest comments I've ever heard. Only people who have built cities and countries have a market for educational materials? What have you been smoking? N21 is one of the most successful organisation in the world at helping people build Amway businesses. Anyone who thinks they cannot learn something from people already successful in the same field is frankly a bit of a twit. Or simply being belligerent for the sake of belligerence.

Re point 6, of course what mafia and drug dealers do is business.

Amway provides goods and services in exchange for money

N21 provides goods and services in exchange for money.

Both Amway and N21 offer discounts (handled as rebates) for volume purchasing.

Which part of that is so hard to understand?

Ann Crystal January 6, 2009 at 11:05 PM  
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ann Crystal January 6, 2009 at 11:08 PM  

You're beating around the bush. I am repeating my question-
1. Amway products are already overpriced (craps). I think you agree with it completely, right?
Network 21 is a FOR profit organization, you agree that too.
Then, how exactly are you giving discounts for Amway products to the IBO's in your organization? Are you explaining to your IBO's about how you're getting back the "so called discount " money from them? To be very precise, do you tell them that Network 21 is really scamming them?

2. I know that Network 21 is not selling Amway products directly. But, your whole training is to force your IBOs to buy Amway products right? Does it mean that Network 21 is selling Amway products? If not, why do you really exist in addition to scamming people?

I may have very little understanding about the business as you said. Could you tell me in plain English whether a new IBO will ever succeed in an already sailed away Ship like Amway? Everybody now know about these MLM scams and may be much familiar with Amway. Only name they might not have ever heard is Network 21. That makes you safe to scam others with the label of Network 21. That may be your sole motivation of going around and replying to truths about Network 21.

As you already agreed that Mafia and Drug trafficking is a business, I can understand your philosophy in painting Network 21, BWW and Amway as businesses.

I donno whether you've ever heard this proverb:
Some people can fool some people for some time, but they can fool all people all the time.

So, if you've answers to any of my questions, then ONLY come back and answer me. Don't come back to shed your frustration with some NONSENSE answers, I won't publish it.
Thanks IBOFB for your understanding

IBOFB January 7, 2009 at 3:48 PM  

1. Amway products have won awards all around the world - clearly they are not crap. The top product lines (more than two thirds of revenue I believe) are Artistry skin care and cosmetics and Nutrilite. Even a cursory examination of the category-equivalent market competition shows your "over-priced" claim is also bogus. Artistry for example has been independently judged by Euromonitor International in the "prestige" category of cosmetics and skin care, alongside brands such as Estee Lauder and Clinique. Indeed it's one of the top 5 in the category. Compare prices and Artistry is almost always cheaper.

Independent surveys have Nutrilite products ranked as having "the most satisfied customers" in the United States, and it's named a "Most Trusted Brand" in countries throughout Asia year after year. More recently Amway's well known cleaning products were named a "Favourite of Experts" in Europe, following up on Amway's SA8 detergent topping Consumer Reports testing by 15% over the next best.

Ultimately value is a subjective decision, and you're entitled to your opinion, but clearly there are an enormous number of people, both consumers and experts, who disagree with your subjective assessment.

2. I'm not at all sure what you mean by the question "Are you explaining to your IBO's about how you're getting back the "so called discount " money from them?". This is the essence of the business plan, of course it's shown to people. How is N21 "scamming them"? It offers products and services that people can choose to buy or not to buy. Most IBOs choose not to buy. Those that do, such as myself, find their products and services generally cheaper than I can buy elsewhere, even for the exact some product (for example a book). That's a scam how?

2. Your constant "begging the question" false logic is becoming more than a little irritating, but nevertheless I'll persist. There is no training to "force" anyone to buy or do anything. What kind of business would survive that kind of approach for even a year, let alone 50 years? Sustainable businesses are built on legitimate demand for quality products.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that I work for Network 21. I do not. I promote N21 products and services, but because I believe they help my Amway organisation develop profitable sustainable businesses marketing Amway products.

You ask - Could you tell me in plain English whether a new IBO will ever succeed in an already sailed away Ship like Amway?

Again your making unsupported assumptions, assumptions that turn out to be false. The plain answer is of course YES. In Amway's oldest market, the United States (known as Quixtar the pas decade), there are hundreds of new Platinums (the first major level) and dozens of new Diamonds and above every year. Clearly new IBOs are succeeding, and while Amway is most definitely sailing, it's not going away.

Joecool January 7, 2009 at 8:28 PM  

IBOFB said: Clearly anyone who thinks thats being "schooled", ala rocket

Joe says: Rocket didn't say that. An anonymous poster said it. And to clarify, Joecool was not that anonymous poster.

Amway exists to manufacture and sell products to IBOs.

IBOs exist to sell products at wholesale to downline, and retail to non IBO customers.

Network 21 is a for profit company that sells motivational and (perhaps) instructional materials for IBOs. These mitvational and instructional materials are supposed to help IBOs build a successful Amway business.

The "hitch" if you will, is that many, if not most IBOs make little or nothing from Amway, whether they get help from network 21 or not. The question is whether or not network 21 reps tell their downline that the network 21 system is a vital key to their Amway success. When you view the IBO population, the number who succeed is minimal at best. Probably a fraction of 1% even reach platinum, where rumor has it, is the break even point if you are associated with the system.

Then there is the challenge that the tools systems maight be an illegal pyramid. In the tools systems, IBO purchase tools from a tools company. There is no customer except the IBOs themselves. So the bottom like is that the IBO tools company owners and compensated IBOs make all of their tools income from IBOs who are in their system exclusively. This matter has not been tested by the FTC (yet).

IBOFB contends that the systems work. I contend they do not work. Average Amway IBO earns about $115 a month before business expenses are considered. IBOs dedicated to the system may earn more, but would also have far more expenses due to the tools. My guess is that the system IBOs, minus the fraction of 1% at diamond or higher, suffer massive losses collectively due to the tools expenses.

IBOFB January 8, 2009 at 3:39 AM  

JoeCool likes to follow me around and spout information he know is false and misleading. I'll respond to him once to point out where, but that's probably the end of the convesation.

What JC fails to point out is that less than 20% of the IBOs ever use any system provided materials and that only about 1% ever follow the recommended business systems for the time recommended to succeed, ie at least a year. The "active" definition used to define average income on the other hand, includes folk who went to just one meeting in a year, folk who just bought enough products one month for themselves that they qualified for a bonus, folk who just asked someone, once in a whole year, if they wanted to buy something. No reasonable person would expect to earn an income from that. Clearly, for many folk their income is somewhere near zero, and neither they nor any sensible person would expect it be higher. Nevertheless, it's included in calculating the average and has the mathematical effect one would expect. This also clearly means that folk actually treating their Amway businesses as businesses are making significantly more than the average. Again, all perfectly reasonable, but JoeCool doesn't want to talk about that.

Indeed, an analysis of known statistics from various sources, including court records, shows that if you do certain things then your "odds of success" in Amway actually approach 100%

Like any business it's hard work and takes time to succeed and many folk simply decide they don't want to do the work necessary. There's been times I've been one of them. JoeCool and his ilk would have us believe that the fact only folk who work hard and consistently over time make significant money is a flaw in the Amway business model.

It seems he wanted some kind of get rich quick scheme and was disappointed. It's no place for the scammers at heart.

With regards the tool systems potentially being an illegal pyramid, JoeCool deceptively comments that the issue of "internal consumption", ie how much of the products are consumed "by the network" has "not been tested by the FTC(yet)".

What he fails to point out, though he is well aware of it, is that the FTC has in fact very clearly stated that the level of internal consumption plays no role in determining if something is an illegal pyramid.

His comments, as usual, are little more than dishonest reflections of the truth.

Tex January 8, 2009 at 11:25 AM  

N21 is a whore, just like the rest of the LCK's.

Click on my name for the tool scam facts.

Joecool January 8, 2009 at 12:33 PM  

IBOFB said: What JC fails to point out is that less than 20% of the IBOs ever use any system provided materials and that only about 1% ever follow the recommended business systems for the time recommended to succeed, ie at least a year.

Joe says: Only 1% ever follow the recommended system. What a ridiculous statement. That's like saying less than 20% of the population plays the lottery and less than 1% of them actually pick the right numbers.

The question is why only 1% of people can or will follow the system/ With the things promoted such as no job, fancy cars, mansions, why don't more people do what it takes?

Simple answer answer - they can't. They can't show enough plans and sponsor enough people because you mention Amway and people scram. People don't want layaway plans to buy double x.

The secondary problem is that IBOs CAN buy tapes and seminars and do the other steps, but selling and sponsoring is the part they most need to do - but cannot because of the inherent problems with the opportunity.

How a supposedly educated guy like IBOFB cannot see this is beyond me. Then again, IBOFB is a known and shameless liar.

IBOFB January 8, 2009 at 5:04 PM  

I wasn't going to reply but I'm just stunned ....

You ACTUALLY BELIEVE that whether any individual IBO is willing to work hard week in week out, learning, changing, and doing what's necessary .... that this is a matter of LUCK???

Whether someone works hard or not is down to LUCK????

Gee, I thought the reason I wasn't putting the work I need to in to my Amway business for it to grow was because I decided not to - but apparently it was because of some supernatural game of craps.

Your arguments are getting more pathetic with every passing day.

Tex January 9, 2009 at 10:30 AM  

I wasn't going to reply but I'm just stunned ....

You ACTUALLY BELIEVE that whether any individual IBO is willing to get scammed week in week out, thinking they are learning, changing, and doing what's necessary while the tool scam drains them of their profit.... that this isn't a matter of ETHICS???

Whether someone is getting scammed or not isn't down to ETHICS????

Gee, I thought the reason my Amway business wasn't growing was because I wasn't putting the work I need in order to grow - but apparently it was because of some super-secret game of tool scamming.

Your arguments are getting more pathetic with every passing day.

Joecool January 9, 2009 at 1:08 PM  

IBOFB, we've been down this road before. Clearly, Amway is not a game of chance or luck.

But it may as well be. The dismal results can be compared to luck.

1 out of approximately 240 IBOs reach platinum, and they do not necssarily stay there for long. 1 out approximately 14,000 IBO go diamond, and since platinums have trouble retaining their business, you can deduce that diamonds can also be unstable.

See you try to spin the discussion away from the main point. You are a shameless promoter of Amway and Network 21.

There is no bonafide prrof that I know of that indicates that Network 21 is any better or worse than any other AMO. It appears that all the AMOs are profiting at the expense of their associated IBOs, regardless of IBO success. Most of what is solf to IBOs are useless. If not, Netowkr 21 or any other AMO could sell their materials not only to IBOs, but to the general public and make a lot more. But they don't.

AMOs don;t sell to the genera; public because in many cases, teh IBO must be duped into thinking that Amway is their salvation and that the only way to succeed is to buy BS materials from AMOs.

IBOFB - the fact that you lie shamelessly to promote these materials to the detriment of the majority of IBOs makes you a huckster.

Even if many IBOs may not use the materials, even the ones who do - you have no bonafide proof that this stuff works in any substantial way. You can spin it and say that many who actually succeed used tools - conversely, still the numbers show that the vast majority who use these tools never reach platinum. Thus the comparison to the lottery is valid.

IBOFB himself has been in network 21 for about 11 years and has not to anyone's knowledge, ever achieved platinum. A great endorsement indeed.

It's quite obvious that IBOFightback doesn't understand Amway and how the systems work.

Tex January 9, 2009 at 8:42 PM  
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tex January 10, 2009 at 3:13 PM  

jc, we've been down this road before. Clearly, you do not understand statistics.

1 out of approximately 240 IBOs reach platinum, and they do not necssarily stay there for long. ---- False, as out of 240 IBO's, about half quit and the other half are needed to produce Platinum volume. This has NOTHING to do with the probability an IBO will become a Platinum.

1 out approximately 14,000 IBO go diamond, and since platinums have trouble retaining their business, you can deduce that diamonds can also be unstable. ---- See above.

See you try to spin the discussion away from the main point. You are a shameless promoter of lies and false logic.

There is bonafide proof that I know of that indicates that Network 21 is about the same as any other AMO, it all comes down to tool pricing and the tool scam. It is a FACT that most the AMOs are profiting at the expense of their associated IBOs, regardless of IBO success. Most of what is sold to IBOs are overpriced. Network 21 or any other AMO can't sell to the general public because the tools are designed for IBO's. You can't sell backhoes to a dentist, either. That's why they don't.

AMOs don't sell to the general public because of the reason above, not because of your whacked out thinking.

jc - the fact that you lie shamelessly to promote these ideas to the detriment of the facts makes you an idiot.

Even if many IBOs may not use the materials, even the ones who do - you have no bonafide proof that this stuff works in any substantial way. ---- FALSE again, the tools got you to 4,000 PV, remember? Or are you lying about that as well?You can spin it and say that you would have succeeded without using tools, but you never did that. Thus, the proof you are a whore mongerer and lied about it is valid.

Many IBO's have been in a variety of AMO's for years and have not to anyone's knowledge, ever achieved platinum, thanks to the tool scam. A great endorsement indeed.

It's quite obvious that jc and IBOFightback don't understand Amway and how the systems work.

Ann Crystal January 10, 2009 at 9:25 PM  

Tex.wait, don't get too much with over promoting Amway. Amway is totally a scam. Diamonds, Platinum, Ruby and craps like that is good for fooling new innocent recruits. Pin doesn't mean anything as far as money or stability is concerned. You know that very well; everybody else know that, Only people who probably don't know is the new recruits\IBOs. And, Amway and the Amway Apocalypses like you don't want the new IBO's to know that truth either. In that case, there is NOMORE AMWAY!!!
Amway and you guys promote PINs like Diamond, platinum, Ruby etc as BIG money things which give your poor new IBOs a misleading feeling that they're safe when they reach that level. Tell them that those pins are no longer valid when the sand at the bottom drains away. I hope that you remember David Shores, a prestigious Diamond who filed bankruptcy and got his house foreclosed building his business in Amway. Please don't sell me the crap that he is a pathetic guy who didn't follow the right teachings of BWW or WWDB or Amway. All I can say is that Amway and your motivational organizations like BWW, WWDB or Network 21 will loot these IBOs till they are bankrupt. After sucking all their blood and money, you guys will start bitching about them that they don't follow your teachings. You guys are worst than Mafia and drug dealers!!!

IBOFB January 10, 2009 at 9:54 PM  

Actually, groups like WWDB report current qualifying pin levels, and that does give an idea of what kind of income they're probably earning, and folk who qualify Founders even more so, let alone folk who continue to increase the size of their businesses and qualify at higher levels, of which there are many.

As for David Shores, he was a "Diamond", for which we have an idea of average income, but the house he was foreclosed on seemed to quite clearly exceed the average income level of a Diamond. Being a Diamond doesn't disqualify you from making stupid financial decisions like buying a bigger house than you can afford.

Tex January 11, 2009 at 1:10 AM  


Where have I "over promoted" Amway? The main purpose of my blogging is to bring attention to the tool scam, not the legitimate profit from Amway products and services, which, thanks to the LCK tool scammers, ends up in THEIR pockets.

The reason pins don't mean anything is because the tool scam provides MUCH more profit than Amway, so the LCK's don't have to worry about maintaining their pin levels.

I definitely want prospects and IBO's to know this truth.

Although the David Shores example is true, it isn't typical. What IS typical is the tool scam. Why talk about the rare example?

I agree the LCK's loot their downline, that's the basic idea of the tool scam.

We should talk to straighten this misunderstanding out, because we are largely in agreement, and blogging is a VERY inefficient method of communication. Let me know a couple of times you are available to call (616) 597-8000
Access Code: 975016#

Notice ibofb didn't use the example of his Almighty N21 when describing the upline typically lying about pin levels. I think this is a positive step WWDB have taken, but a much more meaningful step would be to be transparent about tool profit.

Joecool January 12, 2009 at 12:20 PM  

Ann, WWDB report current diamonds. Actually, that is also false. Even if a diamond falls out of qualification, that diamond still has two years to requalify.
IBOFB is either lying (again) or is mistaken. Note he didn't mention that network 21 only lists current diamonds? This is significant if they are promoting diamonds as knowledgeable on building a business. WOuld you pay good money to go see a former diamond?

Tex is a moron. I told him many many times, I went 4000 PV in spite of the tools. Not because of. And the tools are simply a drain on downline's pockets.

If the tools were so good, why don't Network 21 and WWDB sell them to the general public? Why only IBOs? Because IBOs are scammed and brainwashed into thinking that these tools will lead to success?

Did I mention that tex is a moron and a liar?

Ann Crystal January 12, 2009 at 1:12 PM  

You're right Joecool. I am seeing it from the comments of Tex.

Tex, Thanks for giving me the number to talk. For me, I am done with Amway\Quixtar. I don't like to deal with any of the present or previous Amway`scammers. For me, they are all dead and resting in peace. I don't have any more time for them. Then, you may be wondering why I am having this blog online and replying to you guys as well? I am taking my time for writing this blog as I want to share the truths about the Amway scam which any of you guys never tell to your innocent IBOs. My time is just for someone who is waiting for some literature to take a decision on whether to join Amway or whether to run away from it before loosing too much of their hard earned money. I draw a line there. However, as an advocate of free speech, I allow pro Amway perceptions\comments of you guys in this blog. The only comments I don't want here are the Amway marketing campaigns kind of stuffs which many guys have unsuccessfully tried in my blog.

IBOFB January 12, 2009 at 2:47 PM  

The "tools" are seminars, books, and CDs.

Virtually all of the books are already available to the general public as they are generic business books - I just get them cheaper from N21

The CDs and seminars are targeted towards an Amway audience, so are generally not appropriate for the general market place, however many of the speakers, (which is what the CDs and seminars are about after all) do indeed offer their services to the general marketplace and many of the external speakers utilised (eg John Maxwell, Allan Pease, Todd Duncan etc etc) have very successful businesses offering these materials to the general public. Many internal speakers (eg Beverly Sallee, Doug Wead, Peter Cox, Bernie DeSouza, Joe Pici to name a few from around the world) do the same.

Of course, Amway critics then like to claim this as evidence they're not making enough money from Amway and had to go back to work!

Some folk are incredibly dishonest in the way they phrase things.
They ask a question in such a way as to claim something that isn't even true and then go on the attack about it.

A quite typical straw man strategy.

Joecool January 12, 2009 at 5:32 PM  

Speaking of strawmen, IBOFB promotes Network 21 and Amway as a viable business even when a tiny fraction of 1% make a profit.

Even if you throw out the ones who do nothing, the success rate is less than 1%.

Success = making a net profit above the minimum wage after expenses. (And that's a low standard I may add).

Yes, some speakers like Zig Ziglar do motivational speaking. Come to think of it, Zig and Robert Schuler and even Kurt Warner from the Cardinals are speaking at a motivational seminar in Hawaii next month. It's $4.95 per person, or $19.95 for your entire office! What does Network 21 charge? $200 for the same engagement?

IBOfightback, for whatever reason, promotes an opportunity where the vast majority of people lose money. It makes him a shyster in the eyes of most people.

Tex January 12, 2009 at 11:40 PM  

I think 2 years to requalify is a good balance between transparency and chaos, but this is a minor issue compared to the tool scam, which is where most of the profit for the LCK's comes from, and causes most IBO's below Platinum to have a net loss.

Until you actually go 4,000 PV without tools, you are talking theory, not fact. The fact is you didn't go 4,000 PV without tools, and if you have such confidence, why didn't you just quit the tools and have your group quit the tools, and then you and several of them could have had a net profit? Answer: You know you couldn't keep it together, let alone grow it, without a tool system. Otherwise, you would have. You need to look in the mirror to see the moron.

I've also told you several times why the tools aren't sold to the general public, it's because they are designed for the Amway business. Your point makes as much sense as a dentist buying a backhoe. Settle down jc, a backhoe doesn't wear g-strings, nor is a body part of one of your "friends."

You've mentioned many times I'm a moron and a liar, you just haven't provided any proof, unlike you lying about posting on the World Sex Guide, then lying about joecool18 being you, until proven it IS you.

Ann, the present tool scammers are "alive and well", and continue to scam others like you were scammed. I think you have a lot to offer to help shut down the tool scams.

I am a current IBO and tell ALL of prospects AND IBO's about the tool scam. Not all IBO's are tool scammers, just most of them.

ibofb, I buy the same books for MUCH less than N21 sells them for, and encourage IBO's to check many of them out of the library for FREE. I doubt N21 sells books for less than you can find online, new or used. Name a few N21 books, and let's see who's right.

IBOFB January 13, 2009 at 11:56 AM  

N21 doesn't sell used books, so that's not a possible comparison.

New prices though are nearly always very competitive.

Checking the first non-MLM specific book in our booklist (the second book) I find -

Questions are the answers - Allan Pease

from N21, 106SEK, including tax and shipping

a check on book price comparison site bokfynd.nu (literally "book find")finds the same book costing from 118SEK to 240SEK. The only Swedish supplier, which means including appropriate taxes, being 180SEK. The cheapest other supplier, including tax and shipping, is 125SEK.

N21 is more than 15% cheaper.

Next book is the classic -

Magic of Thinking Big - Dr David Schwarz.

N21 price is 123SEK

A check on bokfynd.nu finds one supplier (US) for 94SEK, excluding tax. Adding tax it becomes 116SEK. Next cheapest is 133SEK (including tax and shipping). Cheapest Swedish supplier is 134SEK, most expensive is 296SEK.

N21 is cheaper than all but 1 other supplier, and they are international and have 14 day+ delivery vs 3 day for N21.

Next book is -

Personality Plus - Florence Littauer

N21 price is 136SEK

bokfynd.nu has it ranging from 131SEK to 312SEK (exlcuding tax).

Accounting for tax, N21 is 136SEK, cheapest Bokfynd could find was 139SEK. N21 is cheaper again.

I had similar experiences with N21 Australia. Nearly always the cheapest or close to it.

Folk who are financially challenged should most certainly utilise the library or second-hand alternatives. Neither are ideal as we encourage people to actively read and write notes in their books.

Ann Crystal January 13, 2009 at 12:25 PM  

"Folk who are financially challenged should most certainly utilise the library or second-hand alternatives. Neither are ideal as we encourage people to actively read and write notes in their books."- IBOFB

IBOFB, I like the term "financially challenged". The people who are not financially challenged will become challenged once they become an Amway IBO or join these motivational organizations like BWW, Network 21, Yager, etc. And, who in the world want to buy a book for its original price when it's available for cheap at a marketplace? This has nothing to do with the amount of money you've in your wallet. It depends on the commonsense level of the people. You're training your IBOs as dumber so that they can be tuned in to the Tool Scam. And, why are you asking your IBOs to scribble in the book? Use notepad instead!! You guys might be afraid that they sell their books after use at marketplaces or to their downline and that way you guys loose your "tool" profit, right? Can it be called a tool scam? I feel sorry for the dumb IBOs who follow your organization's teachings without really knowing that they're being exploited!!!

Joecool January 13, 2009 at 12:39 PM  

Who cares if N21 is cheaper if less than 1% of IBOs are successful as a result? (See my above post for what equals success)

That's like getting a discount on heart surgery then dying on the operating table.

I don't know IBOFB's motive sincehe himself hasn't accomplished anything of significance from Amway.

Tex January 13, 2009 at 1:44 PM  

Ditto what Ann said.

Also, do the N21 prices include taxes and shipping? If not, how much should be added to provide an apples to apples comparison?

Tex January 13, 2009 at 2:10 PM  

Oops! Just noticed the N21 prices included tax and shipping.

Now, the question becomes one of turning the telescope around and view the situation from the other direction. We already covered IBO cost, now let's look at LCK profit, and books are only a part of that picture. N21 probably buys the books for less than half the retail cost, and after the bills are paid, the LCK's get the leftover profit.

The tool scam is a very different scenario if the markup was 10%, rather than 500%. Taking away most of the markup in the former case wouldn't result in much difference in overhead to the typical IBO, whereas in the latter case, it does. The books are one of the least abused parts of the tool scam, but it all adds up.

IBOFB January 13, 2009 at 2:36 PM  

I actually have an incredibly difficult time writing in books. I'm a real book lover and they're kind of sacred for me. Nevertheless it's an act that has true value in learning and recall. While in theory doing so in a notebook should have a similar effect, the reality is that when people go back to read the book again, they don't do so with the same notebook beside them so some of the value of this is lost.

Folk are perfectly free to buy books from wherever they like. We give folk a list of recommended books, and they can buy them from N21 or anywhere they want. I myself buy an enormous number of second-hand books.

I'm not sure how any of that can be possible be interpreted as "scamming".

Your comment that "the people who are not financially challenged will become challenged once they become an Amway IBO" is just typical anti-Amway FUD. You make statements of fact that simply aren't true. Perhaps you just listen to folk like Tex too much? He constantly claims people don't reach profitability until Platinum. What he neglects to mention is that IBO after IBO has told him that they personally reached profitability well before Platinum. I reached breakeven at around the 1000PV mark after a couple of months. Contrast that to one of my more traditional businesses which took *years* to pay off the invesment and break even.

Purchasing BSM from companies like N21 is entirely optional, and what constantly gets ignored by anti-BSM and anti-Amway critics is that by far the majority of Amway business owners choose not to buy these materials. Very few (easily less than 15%) buy them on any kind of consistent basis.

Another comparison - I just received an invitation to an open seminar held by a top sales trainer here in Sweden, who has apparently developed networks in two companies of 20,000 people.

The cost? 1250SEK for 3 hours.

In contract, the last N21 weekend seminar I attended was for a total of 14 hours over 2 days, cost 920SEK, and had multiple speakers who had built MUCH bigger networks than 20,000.

So, you have optional materials, generally cheaper than can be sourced elsewhere and most IBOs elect not to purchase them - and they're somehow being "exploited"??

yeah, that makes sense. :-/

Tex January 13, 2009 at 8:27 PM  

Actually, I think very few people write in books, making the library point VERY minimal.

Why can't they have the same notebook, or better yet, a Word document tied to the book title?

Just because the books are a minor part of the scam doesn't negate the rest of the tool scam.

I doubt you're considering all of your overhead when you claim to break even at 1,000 PV, nor do you represent a "typical" tool scammed IBO.

I am not making the claim, it has been posted by several different former Platinums and above on various blogs, over a period of several years. Consistent, independent input. I've also personally seen many IBO's at or near the Platinum level walk away from the Amway business. I doubt they would do that if they were making money. It doesn't make sense to work your guts out to reach that level and then just walk away, unless you're not making any/much money.

The same IBO's who don't buy BSM regularly don't do much of ANYTHING, either. You can't use that statistic both ways, ibofb.

We've also covered your "optional" BS before as well. You know full well most IBO's have never owned their own business and have some level of trust with their sponsor, making them EXTREMELY vulnerable to the "tools are optional, but so is success" mantra.

What makes sense is the outside speakers don't claim to be financially free via Amway, when the main reason for their financial success is the tool scam. I'll bet those outside speakers had a MUCH larger advertising budget as well. :-/

Joecool January 14, 2009 at 12:13 PM  

IBOFB spins: Purchasing BSM from companies like N21 is entirely optional, and what constantly gets ignored by anti-BSM and anti-Amway critics is that by far the majority of Amway business owners choose not to buy these materials. Very few (easily less than 15%) buy them on any kind of consistent basis.

Joe says: Throw out the do nothing IBOs. The ones on the system who actually make a significant profit with Amway? A small fraction of 1%.

Tex January 14, 2009 at 2:55 PM  

It's not spin, it's lies. ibofb "spins" as if he was a "little" pregnant.

Joecool January 21, 2009 at 3:58 PM  

BTW, platinums is likely not the break even point. In Wisconsin, it was proven that platinums LOST MONEY. Sure the report is a bit dated, but then again, not much has changed in Amway. In fact, if anything, prices went up and the losses are greater for platinums now. The implementation of KATE costed IBOs more money. Other that that, nothing significant has changed in Amway except that the higher up pins are more greedy.

Tex January 22, 2009 at 8:26 AM  

I wonder if those were Platinum PINS or QUALIFIED Platinums.

At some point, one has to consider the typical Platinum makes SOME money, or they would be dropping out even faster than they do now.

However, depending on the structure (lots of width or not), the location of the groups (extra driving/flying expenses), and other factors, the net profit level will vary.

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About me

I was a Quixtar BWW IBO from the GALA organization! I quit from the BWW-Quixtar scam! You wanna know why, Read my postings!
I assure that I am not a "looser" living in underground where there is no life!!!
I always felt that uplines who promote themselves as your "friend" should atleast tell you the truth that this Amway business is hard to get it work!

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